THT, redux, and...uh, tripleduxed 20/05/07

It's back. Thanks to the superpowers of our very own Superhero Saviour, TypeASub. In accordance with my promise to the baby jesus, she and i will be negotiating the desecration of my anal cherry, sometime soon. Be careful what you pray for.

Meanwhile, in its original state (god love ya typea, thanks so much for inactive open windows and the forward):

groovthang:
Because I would write that same letter for you or anyone else in this group.

Not only would i never expect such a letter to be written for me, were i to run my big mouth as much as she did, i'd be wondering why it took me as long as it got booted as it did, and would hardly expect anyone i chat with online to rally to my defense.

I'll go farther than , and say i'm a lot disappointed in you, with your self-aggrandizing and self-importance, based on a freaking internet chat group. I'll stop there, out of a modicum of respect for offsite chats, since a modicum's about what i figure should be afforded.

because if ya can't, you know what to do.

Sure do. Later gators.

So it's perfectly clear, and i don't have to answer questions for a week.

DO NOT speak for me, ever, unless you've got your name tattooed on my labia or you've been asked to. You want to stomp around like the cock of the walk and wow all the biddies with your uber cool toughness, be my guest. You want to proudly boom about the fantastic group that you've got (little newsflash: the users make it fantastic, it's got precious little to do with you, but anyway), go nuts.

But don't presume to lump me and the entire membership of that group, en masse, into one pot of "we all feel this way", because it's not only wholly and utterly dishonest, it's just fucking cheap and inane.

You think Redbrat should be reinstated? Great, have a fucking parade and get it painted on your back. Don't use me, or the rest of your membership, to try and make your point, without even asking us first. And sure as hell don't do it when you're specifically told that the pawns you're trying to use do not consent to being used that way.

It passed self-important and full of shit and became downright fucking sleazy.

Oh. And if i ever did succumb to martyrdom and want such a letter written for me? I'd have it written by someone who doesn't ask me to do their editing. Ugh.

Tempest in a pizza box 13/09/07

So I just read the now locked 'query' thread, and now i'm gonna serious up TNP's fluff thread, since i can't reply there.

Tempest. Fucking. Teapot.

For christ's sake. The facts have been laid out a few dozen times already, yet people either refuse to acknowledge them, or just start making shit up.

There were two hanging out threads. I have no idea where the "the morals thread was interesting" bit comes into play, because the morals thread wasn't on the page at that time. Don't believe me?

Pizza threads were started at and around 19:15 on Sept 14. Morals thread was started on Sept 13 (over a full day to run its course at that point, it had been given more than a chance), and no one bumped it off the page, because it wasn't on active topics page. Timestamps on posts tell that story -- it had been off the active topics page since 12:34, when the last post was made to it. It didn't come back up until limper went digging and bumped it, with the ever topical "at least it's not pizza" comment, at 20:01.

Timestamps would indicate that was that clearly a malicious bump. I'm also quite sure that hijacking a thread for malicious reasons is violating the spirit too. I look forward to this little brouhaha being over, so we can get to talking about that.

Which threads were active at the time?

http://bondage.com/p/2/topic_id/248932/forums/topic.html
This was not one of the two on the active topics page. It was, however, the first thread that came up when one clicked on 'hanging out' (from active topics). Since spankslut bumped her own birthday thread (for a birthday two days before), i'm pretty sure she's not going to have a meltdown at the tidal wave.

First thread
This was one. It was posted at 17:53, and had 3 replies by the time pizza frenzy started. Two from the same person (limper), and one by the OP, okiniiri. Since we've had numerous instances of the "nothing is protected on the internet, watch what you say or do here" variation of threads, i think it's safe to assume that that's why it didn't have a wealth of responses this time. Simply put - an interested thread, but hardly meaty enough to sustain actual interest.

BTW, Oki happens to be one of those dirty av-ers, so i'm sure that must be the reason she's not having a seizure over being pre-empted. Actually, she's been in AV since, and laughed over pizza. That's probably because she's too hurt to talk about it, though.

Other thread.
This, i suspect, is where the tea storm is coming from. This is limper's thread, the other thread sitting on the Active Topics page, under Hanging Out.

I read it. I had no fucking clue what he was talking about, and since it sounded like one of those inside jokes, i moved on. I've come to learn that subwithoutaclue has something about diamonds on the ground in her sigline, that one other poster in a thread with SWaC commented on the diamonds, and then that thread was started by limper.

Obviously it is an inside joke. Fair enough, i'm not willing to extend the ban on fun to no inside jokes. But when i don't get it? It's snarky and unproductive to post to someone else's fun thread with "i don't get it. What are you talking about? Is this a private joke?", so i refrained from posting.

It looks as though others felt the same way i did, since there were no posts to it at all until the pizza frenzy started. Then, the two big complainers in this epic little saga, made sure the thread came alive, by posting to it. It got a few posts after that, though it still hasn't hit a full page. Still - two days later.

I guess no one understands the profundity of the topic. That, or the dirty av-ers have started a campaign against limper, and the whole site's in on it.

Clearly, the forum was beyond dead. It was worse than dead - it was exclusionary. I'd already said happy birthday to spankslut, so i was pretty much excluded from taking part in that thread (yeah yeah, i can't post whenever whatever i want, but there was no point. I'd said it already). I couldn't post to limper's topic, because i had no fucking clue what he was talking about. The thread, quite obviously, wasn't intended for me, so instead of disrupting it, i just walked away and figured "meh, the people who get that'll have a right good time in there. Fair 'nuff".

Yeah, i could have posted to the internet security thread, but honestly...it wasn't interesting to me, and i've posted to those threads dozens of times already. Besides, i'm aware of no rule that says "thou must post to all active topics before starting a new topic". I mean -- that's why one starts a new topic - because the old ones aren't stimulating anything.

Pizza was stimulating. You bet, there was a frenzy, you bet it overtook those other topics, and you bet, it got a whole lot of focus. As lulubel said, she was sitting there, looking for something to do. She saw pizza frenzy, thought "wtf? hahaha, ok this'll be fun", and joined in. She's not an av-er. Borealis, reckless abandon, olsg, cat o' eight tails, wind_of_change, and numerous others are also not av-ers and they joined in the fun, not only posting to current threads, but starting some of their own.

Hanging Out was not only active, it was true to its name. People hung out - people that have never really interacted together before. I know i had no clue who borealis was, before the 100th post thread. Now, i do, and we've shared a laugh and a "hiya, welcome and congrats!". We are supposed to be welcoming and including the n00bs, yeah?

Seriously? This is fucking retarded already. Beyond fucking retarded. This is no longer about moderation, or even over moderation, because it's long past anything resembling moderate. We've hit police state, where the whiniest five or six children are setting the day care rules for the other 200 kids, because they aren't getting the spoiling they so richly deserve. "Teacher! No one wants to play with me, make them play with me!" is rewarded with a "yes darling, you there, you kids, play with this kid right now!". "Teacher, johnny said he doesn't like my pen, he hates me! Make him say sorry and be nice to me!" is responded to with "Johnny, billy's pen is a lovely pen, and we are all going to admire billy's pen as a group, or you're going to have to go to another daycare".

And "teacher, i think no one likes me and they're all going out of their way to not let me play with them or be their friend" is being met with "you know, you just might be right there, no worries, i'll tell those big bad meanies to smarten up and be nice and play with you. Then they'll love you!", instead of the far saner approach of "grab your glove and ask if you can be second base. Better still, just go stand in the field and catch one. People love a joiner "

'Cause i'll just say it straight up, for what it's worth? You whiners - and of course we know who you are, you've outed yourself without katiej's help - nobody likes a pissy kid who thinks he's entitled, and i, for one, sure as hell have no interest in making nice with you. You bitches are interfering with MY use and enjoyment of the site's resources (now's a good time to point out that while there was one full page and 4 posts on a second page of pizza threads, and yes there are screen caps i believe, those threads averaged a page and a half. 20ish posts. Tidal wave indeed), with your incessant fucking "me me me". Seriously. Cut it the fuck out.

I'm goddamned tired of hearing that "interfering with the use" clause, but only when it's convenient. I'm tired of having that thrown in people's faces, time and again, as justification for 'cut it out', yet hearing from the other side of someone's mouth that "yes, i know this is a kink site, yes, i know it's a site based on tolerance and 'all are welcome', but the homophobes and racists have a right to their enjoyment as well, and can speak freely".

Tell me, moderation, do you HONESTLY think that a page full of pizza threads taking over a birthday thread, a "the net's not private" and a private joke is going to turn newbies off the site and drive away valuable contributors....but the incessant ever-present moralizing, homophobic, closed minded, racist, and intolerant nonsense spouted in relationships, technique, politics, arts, support, and philosophy & religion are ok, because "it's an adult site, and people reading should know that we encourage free speech"?

Give. Me. A. Fucking. Break.

Fun's not outlawed at b.com. Anything resembling common sense and maturity are.

Oh dear. Deleted by God 22/09/07

Limper - the only thing that makes me angry about you is that i have to share a board with you, and the rest of the idiot club you're a member of. That perfectly logical, rational, mature adults have to pander to the stupid, inane, childish nonsense that you continue to pour out there, for what appears to be no reason other than to stupid up the place. That, and that saying so makes me the bad guy, because even fact is still 'flame'.

You're an idiot, and reading - let alone associating with - you, albeit combatively and digitally, has just made me dumber. Intelligence i can't get back even if i deleted this reply.

Oh. And you're damn right i'm gonna jump on your posts when i see them. I already told you once that i have no issue whacking at you every time i see your molebean pop out of the ground. 'Cause enough hits, and ya kill it.

Like you're killing the boards, that is.

Moderation, Yep, It's long. 2007-09-29

Moderation, Yep, It's long.

I started to respond to this in the thread it came from, and realized i was derailing a discussion of mod selection with bigger concepts that are only tangentially related. I'll post it here for now, and find a better, more public place for it later.

ilikemonsters:

KatieJ:
Discussion is good - to a point. I remember many instances where it took more than 5 rounds of email to communicate to a member that they had violated a part of the AUP and/or forum rules. The ranting (and that's what it was, not discussion) was because the member didn't like the rules that were in force when they joined the site. I'm sorry, but I think that's excessive. I don't think anyone has the right to throw tantrums because the site isn't doing what they want - and there's evidence of that many times as well.

Oh jeez! More than 5 rounds of email is pretty excessive. I guess my persuasive argument kinda falls apart without the assumption that people will be at least somewhat rational.

I think there's a world of difference between hashing and rehashing someone's already-occurred sanction, and having open, inclusive discussions of moderation as a concept. One is akin to arguing with the drunk guy as to why, no, he cannot have yet another drink to spill on the patron next to him. The other is like comment cards, focus groups, and "how can we serve you better" surveys. I trust we're all smart enough here to know which is dumb, and which has value.

The problem, as i see it, is that the latter are being treated as the former, and increasingly so of late. Any sign of dissension is shouted down, any question is seen as challenge, and gets the ever-popular party lines of "vote with your feet" or "you agreed to these rules, you need to suck it up".

I'll speak for no one but myself. I absolutely agreed to the rules around here, and on those occasions when i'm told "hey bigmouth, back it up. You're veering dangerously close to bad touching here, and that's not ok", i'm the first to say fine. Fine, because i know where the line is, and whether i like it or not, i agreed to colour inside the lines. I don't get timed out. I do occasionally get warned, and i do, even more rarely, get deleted. There are ways to be vociferous, passionate, and even combative without violating. It would probably serve a lot of people some real good to learn how to do that, and to learn what violating really means. We'd likely have fewer complaints about flaming, and subsequent moderating, if they did.

Meanwhile - i understand it's really hard to entertain that voiced dissension and challenge to the status quo when one's inundated with it. It's really hard to respond rationally, objectively, and open-mindedly when someone's screaming the dissension in your face. I know. I've had customers stand in the center of my shop screaming about the salesclerk that sold the item they had on hold in error, and WHAT THE FUCK AM I GOING TO WEAR TO MY WEDDING NOW YOU BASTARDS I WANT HIM FIRED. I'm not firing anyone, and i'm not dealing with you when you're screaming obscenities. Absolutely not.

I am, however, more than willing to discuss this with you when you're able. Frustrated and angry's ok, 'cause i get where that's coming from, and when it's my job to serve you, i need to engage with you through that frustration to find a mutually satisfactory solution. Because i want to keep your business, and you just want pretty shoes for your fucking wedding. I get that, 'cause i would too, and i really can help. It's what i'm here for.

It's no different here. It's frustrating when you voice a concern to the salesclerk, and are told we aren't discussing this, because this is the way it is. (It happens. Not with all of you, not all the time, but it happens, and you know it's true). It gets incredibly frustrating when you try to escalate those concerns, responsibly and respectfully, through the channels, and hear the same party line. And speaking of that, where the hell is the customer service rep? Ali? Hello? Is there anyone in there?

And it passes frustrating doing 90, when things get worse, not better, and the responses remain the same. Then it hits anger.

I take offense at the suggestion that those who vehemently express dissatisfaction with the current "rules" are labeled whiny, sour grapes assholes who just have an axe to grind. I welcome the mods to share my sanction history publicly, because it'll be a short discussion. I also encourage them to share their personal feelings, because it'll help negate this ridiculous idea that being friends with mods gets you off the hook. There are a few mods in this thread that don't like me, and several others on the site that don't either. Sanctions are no more a popularity contest than mod selection is, in my experience.

If i fuck up, i get slapped. I get slapped harder by those that are my friends, because how dare i make more work for them. "Smarten the fuck up, you know better", that's what i'd expect. As well i should, because i do.

There are many who challenge "the rules" for reasons not remotely related to being an asshole or a thorn in your side. Some of us do it because THE RULES AREN'T WORKING ANYMORE. The thing with sets of rules, including AUPs, is that they should be evergreen. Living documents that are constantly revisited and revised to reflect the current climate, the current needs, and, to smaller degree, the current wants of those who are expected to live within those rules. Because they are the reason for those rules, and, ultimately, they're the ones who are going to make or break them. They're the ones who drive the business, and i have the distinct feeling that some here forget that, in their frustration to police the rules.

When one tries to question and challenge those rules from within, without stepping outside the rules, and gets smacked down anyway?

You're damned right it moves from concern to frustration to anger pretty fast. When one hears from those administering the rules that it's their call to take responsibility for changes to those rules, it just becomes more logical - and more fun - to bang one's head against the wall until it's bloody, just so one can debate with the stain.

Police officers don't set rules; they enforce them. They certainly make recommendations, when they see that "ticketing people for jaywalking on a street with no cars is kind of dumb", and those recommendations go to those who *are* responsible for changing the rules.

The people, that is, as represented by their elected officials. In a democracy, anyway.

Bcom's not a democracy. That's probably just as well, given the number of poopularity threads around here. Good lord, if the criteria for 'good policeman' was based on 'who's the most fun bobby at parties' (yes, i'm ashamed that i not only used, but know that reference), it'd be anarchy that even the clash wouldn't support. Lord help us.

That doesn't mean i think bcom needs to be a dictatorship either. A benevolent dictatorship makes for a hot relationship. It does not make for a hot forum.

So it's clear, i don't advocate user selection or user nomination (beyond the current system, which i think could stand review) or even user voting in the sense of "if 20 people want this person, we'll do it", because i think that's asking for trouble. It's also impossible to manage, because which 20 get the say?

I do, however, advocate feedback. "These 5-6 people are currently under consideration for moderatorship. **Note: This is not a vote** This is, though, a chance for you users to SANELY AND WITHOUT VIOLATING provide your feedback as to this person's suitability for this forum and for the job at hand. Here are the criteria we use in selecting a moderator (you'd need to be clear in that, rather than the vague 'well they have to be a good citizen' we've heard so far. What makes a good citizen? How active must they be? How recently must they have cleaned up their act?...and so forth). Discuss, debate, don't violate or you're ass'll be in a mexican jail faster than you can say 'flame'."

I also think public announcements to the effect of "welcome these new mods to this forum" are more than a good idea, they're necessary. I found out, quite by accident (and rumour mill) about three new mods in the last month. Others found out later, and others still likely aren't aware. There's no reason to hide that information, so why wouldn't you announce it?

The bottom line is that it makes no sense to argue "the system's in place, you gotta work with the system" when the system's not working, not anymore. That Sam stepped down, having had enough, that KatieJ's now stepping down for much the same reason (not to mention the countless others over time) is a good indicator. That even users that have long supported moderators and the calls they make are now crying foul is an even better indicator.

If you get one guy (or 5) who's been smacked crying victim, order another beer. If you get one guy who's never been smacked saying 'wtf', offer to buy him a beer and shoot the shit, if you've got the time and money, and then go home and bang your wife. If you get 5, wonder what's in the beer, and switch to whiskey. And when you get 30 and 40?

It might be a good time to put the stein down and find out what the hell's wrong with the lines, 'cause somehow, it's souring the beer.

Fuck you if you think AVC's not friendly

Bryan1: hiya lolly
Lewd_Lolly: shut the fuck up
Heff: CHER23 HAS COOTIES
cher23: hey guyz pm me. 25 f ny here

From the hea...ass 27/09/07

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This woman needs 08/10/07

Yes, cock. Ok, besides that.

So I met this guy a little while back. He was, of course, pretty (they always are), funny, and local. He thought the kink thing was just grand, and said that he wanted to be kinkier too, but just needed someone to explore that with him.

I tried not to roll my eyes, smiled, and said 'uh huh'. 'Cause it's got nothing to do with me hating "vanillas", and everything to do with me not wanting to be anyone's kinky tour guide. I'm all for people exploring - i'm just way too tired to lead that expedition. Just do me. Do me like you own me (or ya never will), and fuck the wanting me to drive. Tired, i tell you.

We talk, and of course, he's hyperfocused on sex and sexuality and expressions of kink. Why the hell not? I'm liberal and open and he's finally hit paydirt with a chick who isn't going to say "omg you're disgusting you freak, i'm not doing that". Generally? Yeah. I did bee guy. I'm open minded and willing.

So anyway, as he continues to ask me the "have you ever done this? Would you do it again?" questions, i'm feeling more invaded and objectified and less human. Sure, that can be hot. Not so much when you don't know the person, and you're just plain bone-tired. And when he asked me "so what's the one thing you've never done, that you really want to more than anything else?" i responded kinda snarkily and agressively.

"I want someone who loves me wholly and completely, who makes me the center of their world, because i'll make him mine. Someone who is capable without me, but better with me, because i'll need him that way too. And i want to love him, and be loved by him, for the rest of my life. That's what i want that i've never done, and never had".

He didn't say anything, and then stuttered a second, and said "uh...ok, well i just kinda meant sexually, like being loaned out for sex or something".

Indeed. Sigh.

This woman who takes on the world
And picks up your shirts, keeps it together somehow
This same woman that melts with your touch
Wants you to feel what I'm feeling right now

'Cause this woman needs
A safe place to land
The strength in your hands
To know you know
What this woman needs
Is somewhere to cry
So lay by my side
And I'll tell you, I'll tell you

This woman needs to be reassured
That my heart's your home, and love is what wills you to stay
I need you to see me in every light
And hear that you still think I'm beautiful anyway

Cause this woman needs
A safe place to land
The strength in your hands
To know you know
What this woman needs
Is somewhere to cry
So lay by my side
And I'll tell you, I'll tell you
What this woman needs